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Seti
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 02:58 pm |
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Am I missing somthing?
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:32 pm |
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Seti wrote: Am I missing somthing?
there' s a section in the APOC rule about how psychic powers affect warmachines which states "Just like gargantuan creatures, they are not affected by psychic powers (either friendly or enemy) with the exception of those that are attacks with a given strength value,"
A farseer cannot guide or fortune a titan...or even more correctly said, if you guide or fortune a titan, the titan does not gain any benefit from it.
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twaimn
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:44 pm |
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where does it say that about the psychic powers?!?
you mean I only have to be HALF as scared of Kevin as I am?!?!
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Seti
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:44 pm |
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What? You mean my Titan won't hit on every shot, every turn any more? How could they!(GW) ... oops I missed that little rule.. Eh, it was fun while it lasted, at least I never made my Farseer on a jetbike. No need now.
I do think that's alittle weird, Fireprism crews can be guided but not Titan crews...
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:45 pm |
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twaimn wrote: where does it say that about the psychic powers?!?
you mean I only have to be HALF as scared of Kevin as I am?!?!
It's in a boxed out section near the Superheavy damage tables. I completely forgot about it.
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:48 pm |
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Seti wrote: What? You mean my Titan won't hit on every shot, every turn any more? How could they!(GW) ... oops I missed that little rule.. Eh, it was fun while it lasted, at least I never made my Farseer on a jetbike. No need now.
I do think that's alittle weird, Fireprism crews can be guided but not Titan crews...
It's easy to overlook. I completely forgot it existed (I even did a smaller scale thing with my eldar Knight and fortune farseer in one game).
It is a little weird, but is likely in their to prevent Overbalance issues (like a titan singlehandedly destroying someone's whole army  )
Maybe you could make some sort of special Coucil of farseers rule who would follow the titan in a trancelike state combininig their powers and concentration to cast a single power on the titan all game....
Or just grin and bear it.
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Seti
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:58 pm |
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"It is a little weird, but is likely in their to prevent Overbalance issues (like a titan singlehandedly destroying someone's whole army )"
---- Hmmm, there might be something to that...
"Maybe you could make some sort of special Coucil of farseers rule who would follow the titan in a trancelike state combininig their powers and concentration to cast a single power on the titan all game...."
---- No, I'll just except it and fortune someone else, Harlequins maybe
at least Doom still works with the Pulsars though
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 03:59 pm |
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Seti wrote:
at least Doom still works with the Pulsars though
Yes it would, as it is cast on an enemy unit. WAITAMINUTE, no it doesn't!!! how do you reroll to wound rolls on a weapon that automatically wounds?
Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:01 pm by Derling
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Seti
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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| er... that was a little Eldar humor... as Destructors auto-wound there is no need for Doom(but I'm sure you got it!)
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:42 pm |
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Seti wrote: What? You mean my Titan won't hit on every shot, every turn any more? How could they!(GW) ... oops I missed that little rule.. Eh, it was fun while it lasted, at least I never made my Farseer on a jetbike. No need now.
I do think that's alittle weird, Fireprism crews can be guided but not Titan crews...
Sorry Kev. Well... no i'm not. 
BooYah!!!
Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:44 pm by Wolf Man
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Seti
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:50 pm |
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"Sorry Kev. Well... no i'm not."
Actually I thank you for that, I never want to break the rules. I'm glad to be corrected before the big game. Nice catch!
When I blow someone off the board I want it to be legit!
p.s. Do I get extra points to my Geek score for the Pulsar/Doom joke? Only a true dork would get it...
Last edited on Fri Jan 11th, 2008 04:52 pm by Seti
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Fri Jan 11th, 2008 06:49 pm |
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Derling wrote:
While I'm set to play it as is, my prediction is that I will find again that this Railcannon and Ion cannon platform will likely not actually produce the kind of havoc a 1k warmachine really should. I initially point it out around 800pts (it still gets heavilly outgunned by all 800pt war machines, but makes up for it by all the cool flyer stuff), but pointed it up to lessen the initial reaction. I will be keeping track of EXACTLY what it does this year for analysis of it's point cost in future events.
The value of a large point unit like this can't just be measured in it's firepower, as I believe from previous big games survivability may be a super-heavy vehicles real forte: i.e., the longer a super-heavy survives, the more of your enemy's firepower it absorbs each turn, the less your other units get targeted.
The super-heavy is a sponge for firepower. I can think of several occasions in big games past where the performance of a super-heavy was judged successful by it's owner based entirely on how long it stayed alive and what it took to kill it.
Not an easy thing to factor the value of, but one big threatening weapon on a chassis that is nearly impossible to hit cannot really be compared to a baneblade for points value.
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twaimn
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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 05:17 am |
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On the contrary. If I know I can't kill it, won't that mean that I wont devote ANY firepower to it? Granted, that gives a new value all its own, since youll get to plan on using it every turn with impunity. But in truth, Id be more scared of two baneblades (900 pts) than one mako (1000 pts) because while I know that I can probably kill the two, and will devote the fire to doing so, I also know that I HAVE to devote the fire to doing so because the two of them can pretty much single handedly kill my entire army. I'm not sure I feel that the mako can make that same claim
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Hank: Brock, if pirates really exist, I mean, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy could even be real, right? It's like all bets are off!
Brock: Hank nobody ever said pirates don't exist.
Hank: So you agree with me that this is impossible.
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Derling
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Posted: Mon Jan 14th, 2008 04:19 pm |
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Major_Slovak wrote: The value of a large point unit like this can't just be measured in it's firepower, as I believe from previous big games survivability may be a super-heavy vehicles real forte: i.e., the longer a super-heavy survives, the more of your enemy's firepower it absorbs each turn, the less your other units get targeted.
The super-heavy is a sponge for firepower. I can think of several occasions in big games past where the performance of a super-heavy was judged successful by it's owner based entirely on how long it stayed alive and what it took to kill it.
Not an easy thing to factor the value of, but one big threatening weapon on a chassis that is nearly impossible to hit cannot really be compared to a baneblade for points value.
Hey Pete,
I agree with you 100% that you can’t gauge a vehicle (particularly super heavies) solely by their quantity of firepower. There’s maneuverability, durability for objective taking transport ability, and psychological effects too.
Super heavy flyers don’t absorb shots like ground based super heavies though and cannot take objectives according to ours or Apoc rules. Their durability allows them other things, like easier air superiority and positioning, and can allow them to transport shock troops into tighter spots if needed. So there certainly is something to having a big durable flying thing on the table.
My belief in the overpricing of this model stems from a comparison of other Super heavy craft gauging it’s overall effectiveness on all of their strategic capabilities. The Three it is most similar too (in order of closest similarity) The Eldar Vampire Raider, The thunderhawk gunship, and the Marauder heavy bomber. The Maruader is a significantly inferior craft bearing a nice payload or ordnance and conventional weapons, but lacks the apocalyptic punch of the others (and it’s point cost reflects this)
1 The Thunder Hawk- this ship with its dorsal and conventional armaments and hell strike capabilities wields a slightly weaker threat potential on it’s own compared to the Mako( though template based destructor weapons are among the best all purpose killers in the game). While better armored and clad in ceramite shielding, the lack of a forcefield protection also makes this craft more suseptable to heavy weapons being fired in an AA role (though equal in protection against most standard AA weapons).
The strongest advantage the thunderhawk wields is it’s impressive abilty to transport 30 heavily armoered shock troops into the heart of battle. Whether deploying tactical squads onto as building objective or plowing Assault marines and terminators into melee with its assault ramp, The thunderhawk has the ability to bring a strong contingent of troops to the most strategic place on the battlefield. In comparison, The Mako’s handful of gundrones can make for some harassment capabilities or drop onto an out of the way objective, but really lacks the type of shock troop punch of the Thunderhawk(where a lot of it’s value is determined). The thunderhawk costs 40 –100 pts less than the Mako does in this incarnation.
2. The Vampire Raider- The Raider operates very much like the Mako, it is almost entirely dedicated to superheavy aeriel fire support. It armor 10 is slightly inferior to the Mako, and both are protected by fields. The Mako carries a contingent of 8 gun drones, which make for a little deployable fodder. The Raider carries a twin linked Pulsar which is largely superior main weapon when compared to the railcannon. It’s secondary weapons are modestly comparable to the Mako’s Secondaries. Overall, with most of the attributes being comparable, the vampire raider’s superior primary firepower makes it a better superheavy gunship. The zinger here is that the Raider only costs 730 pts, 280 pts more than what I have the Mako pointed out.
As I mentioned, I going to run it I this Big game at my original price of 1000pts. If I’m losing 100 or so points of true value, I’m really not concerned. I just like to field da cool models. I just think pricing it around 750-800pts is not all that unrealistic a notion in general.
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Stormcaller56
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:25 pm |
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overall, i don't have a problem with the armour, the weps, or the pointing. however, i do think that any flyer of this size needs some adjustment in terms of "to hit" rolls. the "6" thing seems a bit much given that the flyer would not be moving as fast as smaller craft, and present a MUCH larger target...time for a sanity check here...
An example...12 marines with LCs fire at it. only 2 would hit. only 1 would have a chance of damaging with the 4+ save. that is potentially 1 structure point out of 4!!! it would, statistically, take  48 LC shots to bring this thing down! from a gaming perspective, that seems a bit much. of course, none of this even takes into account the armour pen rolls.
following suggestions...lower armour to ten, yes ten. i think this appropriate with a 4+ invulnerable save. it also fits the fluff, say, comparing to a thunderhawk. imperial vehicles generally tend to rely on bulk vs. tech. also, with a flyer this large, i think a 4+ to hit is appropriate, or normal BS if in hover mode.
these adjustments at least make it POSSIBLE to bring this thing down. otherwise, you might as well just let it fly around untouched for the whole game, as it will be almost impossible to shoot down or even damage as written.
to close on a positive note, it is an AWESOME model Tim, and deserves to be played. let's just make sure it WORKS from a gaming perspective.
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grimlock35
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 02:31 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: My initial reaction is that is looks good and i think the changes are smart, but the points seem a little low for what this thing is capable of.
And thats the Tau in a nutshell.
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Derling
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 06:07 pm |
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Stormcaller56 wrote: to close on a positive note, it is an AWESOME model Tim, and deserves to be played. let's just make sure it WORKS from a gaming perspective.
Thanks, Dan.
All in All, I think I'm going to have to disagree that this model doesn't work especially from a standpoint of 1000 pts. It essentially is 1k of of deployable craft with the firepower of 1-2 Leman russ tanks depending on what types of targets it chooses. It never qualifies as a scoring unit, transports a meager contigent of attritional models (which don't score either). Essentially the one thing it does bring to the table for it's heafty pricetag is the ability to deploy this firepower with relative safety, provided the opponent doesn't havy any air or ground based AA assets.
I have already see nthis ship fly crippled and weaponless over the Ork fortified deserts of Morkuishu and fear little that when truly wanted, this craft can be crippled or destroyed.
Essentially, the only thing dropping the front and side armor to 10 does to this craft is make it susceptable to massed bolter fire, as the shifts to heavy weapon die rolling are minimal in the scheme of things (a lascannon failing to damage it 1 in 6 times isn't nearly as important as every bolter in an army trying 6 to score that glancing hit.
I'm pretty comfortable where it falls along the lines of it durability. Rest assured that even this mighty craft (1/5th of my total force) will begin to plot it's moves more carefully when the first Hydra, Thunderbolt, or Overfiend moves onto the table.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:47 pm |
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I'm actually okay with this thing as it is. It's too bulky to be armor 10. It should be 11. I'm just not sure about the 1000 points. Still, I say play it as 1000 and we'll see what happens.
I agree with StormCaller in that this thing seems impossible to inflict damage on from typical units. You first need to chop 12 inches off of your range, next you need a 6 to hit it (when in flyer mode), then you need to penetrate the armor, next you have a 50/50 chance that the hit will be cancelled, and if it isn't you need to roll decent on the damage table (you always glance and never penetrate) meaning you need another '6'.
However, this is the Big Game, and there are some ways around all this.
1. Get a flyer of your own to take it down. They use their BS against other flyers, and while this only negates the first '6' you need to hit, it is a start.
2. Make some anti-aircraft weapons. It's within your power to do so. And again, even these weapons will have a hard time doing their job against this thing, but it's better than relying on devastator squads.
Plus, you need to realize that although it will be VERY difficult to do any real damage to this model, it will be pretty EASY to keep it from firing that super-mega-rail-cannon-of-death-gun each and every turn. Throw a few autocannons at it, glance it, and there you go, no shooty the big boomie. 
Now Tim, to say that the firepower containted on this flyer of yours compares to 1 to 2 Leman Russ tanks is... well it's just silly. Look at the weapons it's toting and replace them all with 1 or 2 battle cannons and tell me that it isn't completely neutered compared to what it looks like now. Plus, in hover mode it DOES count as a scoring unit.
Let's play it as is. We can decipher its real value after the game. Just remember Tim, if you're going to keep track of its kills, then you also need to keep track of all the units that have fired at it and the damage they do (or don't do) to it. Personally I'd say forget all that stuff as it sounds like work and we'll be gaming and drinking and having FUN! I'd rather just have a discussion on what we think afterwards.
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twaimn
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Posted: Sat Jan 19th, 2008 07:54 pm |
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having seen both variations of the eldar heavy flyer comming in at 750ish pts, I'm going to side with tim... more than even tim himself
I'm totally positive that after big game everyone is going to come and post that the mako was under powered and should have been cheaper, to the point where I think his initial post of 800 points is the more realistic cost.
it'll play at 1000, since thats what we all agreed on, so I'm just getting ready to say "told you so"
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Hank: Brock, if pirates really exist, I mean, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy could even be real, right? It's like all bets are off!
Brock: Hank nobody ever said pirates don't exist.
Hank: So you agree with me that this is impossible.
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Derling
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 04:38 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: Now Tim, to say that the firepower containted on this flyer of yours compares to 1 to 2 Leman Russ tanks is... well it's just silly. Look at the weapons it's toting and replace them all with 1 or 2 battle cannons and tell me that it isn't completely neutered compared to what it looks like now. Plus, in hover mode it DOES count as a scoring unit.
I think we'll find that the 4 weapons on this craft are essentially dwarfed by 2 battle cannons, 2 lascannons, and 4 heavy bolters... The rail cannon is the only item on the vehicles that's really even "Apocasized"
on an additional note, I will be revising the flyer rules tomorrow, as I noticed there are NO stipulations for flyers counting as scoring units at all. Units with the "flyer" rules, should never count as a scoring unit at all, regardless of the movement mode it's using. At best, those that can transport scoring troops can. Good catch!
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There are two things I know to be true. There's no difference between good flan and bad flan, and there is no war.
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