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Seti
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Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 07:52 pm |
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Tonight 7:30 at Boroth's place,
Seti's 5th edition chaos army lead by the mighty Voltan faces the Iron Warriors of 4th edition and the mighty Morgoth.. Are Boroth's claims that 4th edition is superior true? Did GW really nerf Chaos players???
Battle Report to follow...
Last edited on Mon Jan 18th, 2010 09:53 pm by Seti
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 09:47 pm |
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Are you saying that 5th edition chaos is playing against 4th edition chaos?
hmmm... that'd be interesting. Keep us posted.
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Pen dull
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Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 10:58 pm |
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I'm so excited I'm peeing my pants.
Wait. That's not because I'm excited. I'm drunk.
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ethmongul
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 12:58 pm |
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| So........... How'd it go?
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:00 pm |
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Yes you heard right this was the Night of Nights, the Game of Games; The 5th edition Chaos Marine Codex versus the 4th Edition Chaos Marine Codex.
I played the Iron Warriors Legion and Seti played his Slaaneshi Warband.
I will refrain from telling you who won or lost because Seti is going to post up a Battle report later today with the turn by turn account of the epic battle that determined who has bragging rights.
Well the game was 2000 points per side, the mission was Speartip and Annihilation.
Here is my Army List.
HQ -
Chaos Lord Morgoth - Chaos Lord with Mark of Undivided, Twin Lightning claws (one of them Master-crafted), Daemonic Mutation (+1 attack in hth), Furious Charge, Servo Arm, Frag Grenades, Spiky Bits (1 re-roll to hit in hth), Bionics.
186 points
Elites -
3 Obliterators
210 points
Troops -
6 Marines - Missile Launcher, plasma gun, Mark of Undivided
1 Champion - Power fist, combi-flamer, daemonic mutation, spiky bits, Mark of Undivided.
mounted in a Rhino with smoke launchers, extra armor, havoc launcher
261 points
6 Marines - Missile Launcher, plasma gun, Mark of Undivided
1 Champion - Power fist, combi-flamer, daemonic mutation, spiky bits, Mark of Undivided.
mounted in a Rhino with smoke launchers, extra armor, havoc launcher
261 points
6 Marines - Missile Launcher, plasma gun, Mark of Undivided
1 Champion - Power fist, combi-flamer, daemonic mutation, spiky bits, Mark of Undivided.
mounted in a Rhino with smoke launchers, extra armor, havoc launcher
261 points
6 Marines - Missile Launcher, plasma gun, Mark of Undivided
1 Champion - Power fist, combi-flamer, daemonic mutation, spiky bits, Mark of Undivided.
mounted in a Rhino with smoke launchers, extra armor, havoc launcher
261 points
Heavy Support -
Predator - twin-linked lascannon turret, 2 heavy bolter sponsons, smoke launchers, extra armor
138 points
Predator - twin-linked lascannon turret, 2 heavy bolter sponsons, smoke launchers, extra armor
138 points
Dreadnought - Twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher, havoc missile launcher, smoke launchers, extra armor.
168 points
Basilisk - no upgrades
125 points
Total - 1989 points
This was a great game and really emphasized the differences between the 2 codexes, it was extremely illuminating and confirmed some of my angst about power levels between the two codexes.
It also helped to show what units increased in effectiveness with the new codex, and what units and wargear options were better with the old codex.
Its was definately eye-opening and it was quite fun putting together the list again with the old codex. And for all the people who said it took forever to build an army list with the old codex, I took all of 15 minutes to put together my initial list with maybe another 15 minutes to tweak it to where I wanted it after my initial draft.
I put the list together last Thursday and did not taylor it to Setis list in any way.
The subtle changes I made from what I would have played duiring the 4th edition of the rules to the 5th edition rules were using champions with powerfist and combi-flamer as opposed to just a powerfist guy before; the squad sizes of 7 were also something I did new because I wanted to maximize heavy weapons and redundancy of units.
This list is definately a long range shooty list and is not comparable to any 5th edition Chaos Codex list that can be made because of the number of 48" range weapons in the list it is impossible to reproduce in the new codex.
the weapon breakdown:
5 missile launchers
5 havoc missile launchers (shoots 2 frag templates a turn)
3 twin-linked lascannons
5 heavy bolters
1 earthshaker cannon
3 obliterator weapons (can be lascannons, frag missiles, autocannons, heavy bolters, twin-linked plasma guns, twin-linked melta guns, or flamers)
17 48" range heavy weapons (includes oblits)
5 36" range heavy weapons
a total of 22 heavy weapons, impossible in the new codex.
If the deadnought fire frenzies (in the old codex he double-fired all his weapons), i can lay out 24 frag templates in one turn.
The army is light on models coming in at only 40 models total, but it has 14 kill points.
Setis army had more infantry models than all the models I had in my army put together.
It has 8 vehicles however, and is quite manueverable.
I will leave the battle report and outcome of the battle to Seti who will post it later today.
Discuss!
____________________
"Horus was weak, Horus was a fool" - Abaddon The Despoiler
http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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ethmongul
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:06 pm |
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Did you guy's play with 4th ed rules or 5th ed rules? If it was the latter, I would think that having all of those heavy wepons in your list would give you a distinct advantage........ but on the other hand, you do put out a huge amount of KP's in a relatively small army which puts you at a disadvantage in the scenario.
I'll bet it was a great fight and I can't wait for the play by play.
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:13 pm |
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This is an army list that is what I like to play at 2000 points today with the 5th edition chaos codex.
18 heavy weapons (if you include the heavy flamer and oblits)
13 of those at 48" range.
55 models total
So as you can see, there are less long range weapons, but more total models and one less kill point at 13.
And only 6 vehicles.
Its an interesting comparison of lists.
NOTE: THIS IS ONLY FOR COMPARISON PURPOSES, I PLAYED THE PREVIOUS LIST AGAINST SETI's LIST NOT THIS ONE.
HQ
Chaos Lord - Terminator Armor, 2 lightning claws
130pts
Elites
5 Terminator Champions - 1 chainfist, 1 heavy flamer, Icon of Chaos Glory, combi-melta
235pts
Troops
9 chaos marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, melta gun, missile launcher
1 Champion - powerfist, combi-flamer
in Rhino - extra armor, havoc launcher
295pts
9 chaos marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, melta gun, missile launcher
1 Champion - powerfist, combi-flamer
in Rhino - extra armor, havoc launcher
295pts
9 chaos marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, melta gun, missile launcher
1 Champion - powerfist, combi-flamer
in Rhino - extra armor, havoc launcher
295pts
9 chaos marines - Icon of Chaos Glory, melta gun, missile launcher
1 Champion - powerfist, combi-flamer
in Rhino - extra armor, havoc launcher
295pts
Heavy Support
3 obliterators
225pts
Predator - 2 heavy bolters, autocannon, extra armor
115pts
Predator - 2 heavy bolters, autocannon, extra armor
115pts
____________________
"Horus was weak, Horus was a fool" - Abaddon The Despoiler
http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:14 pm |
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We played the 5th edition rules, so it was very interesting to see how the old codex worked with the new ruleset.
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http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:21 pm |
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That was exactly it Eth, I had the advantage in the number of long range weapons but with such a low models count and so many kill points to give up, it could go either way.
Seti suggested doing Annihilation before he saw my list to give a better idea of whos list was more killy and we rolled randomly for deployment.
Going into the evening I had no idea what scenario we were going to play, I simply built a list I would play with under the 5th edition rules from the 4th edition codex, so kill points and speartip were not in my calculations for building the list.
Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:23 pm by LordBoroth
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http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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Derling
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 01:50 pm |
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LordBoroth wrote:
And for all the people who said it took forever to build an army list with the old codex, I took all of 15 minutes to put together my initial list with maybe another 15 minutes to tweak it to where I wanted it after my initial draft.
I'd believe you except the the GW writers say it takes many hours to make a chaos army under the old codex.
....
We should have a game together soon, since your table is so inviting and I do't have one. We totally need you to kick my ass like in the olden days...
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 02:14 pm |
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Oh ya, the 'GW writers' are always right, I forgot.
We should play a game, yer welcome to come over anytime. I have a table that is 4' X 8' but can be expanded to 5' X 8' for bigger games.
Oh, I should have mentioned the game we played last night was on a 4' X 6' board, I marked off 1' on each end so it was a standard size board.
Last edited on Tue Jan 19th, 2010 02:24 pm by LordBoroth
____________________
"Horus was weak, Horus was a fool" - Abaddon The Despoiler
http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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Derling
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Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 02:41 pm |
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LordBoroth wrote: We should play a game, yer welcome to come over anytime. I have a table that is 4' X 8' but can be expanded to 5' X 8' for bigger games.
I can't wait for the Batrep. you've put out some interesting but non specific analysis!
PM me you phone # and we'll set up a game soon.
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There are two things I know to be true. There's no difference between good flan and bad flan, and there is no war.
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 02:50 am |
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My list...
HQ) Voltan - Mark of Slanneesh, Wings, Plasma Pistol, Bliss Giver (170)
T) 9 Noise Marines - Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster (260)
T) 9 Noise Marines - Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster (260)
T) 14 Bezerkers + Krom! (skull champ) Power Fist, Plasma Pistol (370)
T) 8 Chaos Marines , Melta Gun, Icon of Chaos Undivided, Champ + Fist
Rhino + Havoc (230)
T) 8 Chaos Marines , Melta Gun, Icon of Chaos Undivided
Rhino + Havoc (175)
Hv) Defiler (150)
Hv) 2 Obliterators (150)
Hv) Predator Twin Lascannon (105)
El) 5 Chosen + Lascannon, 1 melta bomb (130)
- 2000 pts.
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 03:54 am |
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The Report -
Boroth gets first turn and choses to deploy and go first. He puts nothing too close to the center and generally deploys for an Iron Warriors shooting fest (no shock there)
After seeing his deployment, I set up 1 squad of Noise Marines in a building about 12 inches away from center, hid much of my vehicles as well I could, and infultrated the chosen in a tower with a good firing point.
Turn 1
Boroth's Dread fire frenzies, killing 2 Noise Marines deployed in the building, He then unleashed a slew of Havocs and frags from the rhinos killing 4 more in the same squad. Also killing 1 Bezerker and on the other side of the battle field, a Pred with heavy bolters takes down a Chosen. Boroth mostly just used his movement to get into fire range, little to no movement towards the enemy.
Seti starts his Bezerkers who had be taking cover next to a building, towards Boroth's line, still using cover were possible. Boroth's heavy weapons are many and can deal some damage (even Bezerkers are no fools ) Because Boroth is moving to a fire position in his corner of the table, I (I hate talking in third person) start to form a "U" around his forces with my movement. My shooting was uneventful, other then the two Oblits morphing Lascannons and taking out a Lascannon turret on a Pred.
Turn 2
Boroth again moves very little, he seems content in his tight defensive formation. His Dread now Blood Rages, running towards the Bezerkers. His Predator takes out 2 chosen now only left with Heavy Bolters. And the Basilisk takes down one Bezerker. Lucky they are still behind cover from it.
I continue my envelope move, moving my rhinos out and towards Boroth's forces. My Noise Marines remain stationary as both units have a high fire position inside a building, good view.. good cover. They just fire Blastmasters at rhinos, generally causing them to not be able to shoot Cletus "the Blind" (my chosen lascannon guy, who generally misses) blows a Rhino. and a Battle cannon shot immobolized the Basilisk.
Turn 3
Boroth's dread now fire frenzies again, killing 2 Bezerkers. The fully functional Predator blows up my Predator. And a crack shot takes out another Bezerker. Boroth moves his unit standing on the remains of a rhino, into cover of a building, Morgoth also makes for the same building. Boroth's movement at this point is very limited. His pounding with Havocs and frags continues, dropping the squad of Noise Marines down to one (the guy with the Blastmaster).
My Bezerkers that remain (around 9 or 10) now break cover and advance on the Dread who is within charge range. Obliterators take out a Predator. And Krom destroys the Dread in HtH. sadly causing an explosion killing 4 Bezerkers. As the Bezerkers are now inches from Boroth's lines, they use the d6 to get into as much cover as Possible.
Turn 4
Boroth must now act, he has Bezerkers in his lines, he moves 3 rhinos in to deal with this threat. Deploying all three squads around the Bezerkers. Two squads unleash rapid fire bolters, flamers, and plasma guns into the Bezerkers, taking out 6 more. meanwhile the three Oblits take out that last Noise Marine in the forward squad with Lascannons. The charge by the remaining unit of Iron Warriors takes out the last three Bezerkers, losing two of their own.
I see my chance to counter his counter moving my rhino on my left flank in, deploying the unit to fire on the unit who just defeated the Bezerkers. I choose a 2 pronged attack by moving and deploying the other rhino on my right against the Marines who had hid in the building after their rhino was destroyed. I figure I have him now, as he finally has units in the open, so I fire the Defiler, remaining Blastmaster, and two oblits morph Plasma Cannons (say hello to fifth edition!) poor scatters give me only 4 kills against one of the two squads. The unit who deployed on my left takes down 4 of the depleated squad who had just beaten the Bezerkers in the HtH.
Turn 5
This decision to reveal my rhino units proves deadly, as a well placed Basilisk round takes out all of the Marines on my left flank, (ouch!) and on the right, Boroth's Oblits morph plasma (guns or pistols.. not sure) anyway 6 plasma shots ring down on my right flank Chaos Marine squad, softening them up. A charge succeeds by the Iron warriors in the building, but fails for Morgoth who trips on a rock. This doesn't matter as with the power of Boroth's champ with fist is more the my unit can handle.
After losing both my attacking chaos squads, I resolve myself to return to shooting, my Oblits take out the Basilisk, and my remaining Noise Marines blow a Rhino. Cletus "the Blind" still firing alone in his tower, immobolizes the Predator.
Turn 6
That Predator then returns the favor by doing the same to my Defiler. A Havoc is blow off one of my rhinos, but the highlight of the turn is Boroth fires three oblit auto cannons into Cletus "the Blind" he saves them all!
Cletus "the blind" and my Noise Marines target a lone remaining Iron warrior, but after a Lascannon and a Blast master roll 1's to wound, my Oblits are forced to take him out with Lascannons. 
The Game ends...
and the winner......
is no one! kill points are 5 to 5!!
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 04:13 am |
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Thoughts..
So it is my view that Boroth is both right and wrong about 4th being better the 5th. For his specific army, he is generally right. His champions are way better, spiky bits and mutations make his champs much more deadly then my 5th edition ones. The Basilisk in his army is nice, but not much different then my Defiler for long range fire support. Too bad Morgoth and Voltan never met, because I'm guessing that if Morgoth charges, both kill each other (furious charge) but if Voltan charges he wins and Morgoth never gets to attack. Bliss giver + int 6 from Slanneesh.
Havocs? ehh what do you want 2 templates st. 4 (4th) or 1 twin linked st. 5 (5th) equal if you ask me. Oblits? hard to say, morphing auto cannons is nice (4th) but so are Plasma Cannons (5th)
5th edition Chaos troops are better, better equipped. Plus my list would not exist in 4th edition due to Khorne and Slanneesh not liking each other.
As to the weapons Boroth could put into is 4th edition list, I thought I equaled them pretty well with what I could add.
2 48 inch Blast Masters
1 48 inchLascannon
1 48 inch Twin linked Lascannon
1 battle Cannon
1 Reaper Auto
2 Oblits
2 Melta Guns
Boroth had more, but I feel if I had rolled better, I could have just fought him in a fire fight. Especially if I could get Sonic Blasters in range.
So it is my view, that 4th edition had it's advantages, but so does 5th, they are just slightly different. Neither codex stands out as overly superior to the other, in my view.
Last edited on Wed Jan 20th, 2010 04:16 am by Seti
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 04:39 am |
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a couple of pics.. Noise Marines deploy in a good position to fire and get cover.
Attachment: noise_jay.jpg (Downloaded 24 times)
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 04:40 am |
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Boroth's battle line
Attachment: iron.jpg (Downloaded 24 times)
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 04:41 am |
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The game table at the end.
Attachment: battle.jpg (Downloaded 24 times)
____________________
- Mark got Dickeled!!!!
- "Forward he cried from the rear as the front rank died"
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 12:14 pm |
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| Cool battle report! Thanks for posting.
____________________
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ethmongul
Super Moderator
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 01:09 pm |
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| Outstanding job you two! Very gripping report and overview. I enjoyed it all.
____________________
Makin' it up as I go along!
"A man who maketh the same mistake twice is like a dog going back to its own vomit."-Pendull
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