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Pen dull
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 01:34 pm |
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So the answer is... none?
Hilarious. Great report!
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 05:07 pm |
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Nice work guys. Great premise for a game.
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Derling
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 05:26 pm |
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that was a nice report the both of you....
I did an analysis comparing the New Chaos SM codex to the new SM codex and I had the same kind of "middle of the road" results.
In some areas, the chaos codex blew Codex SM away in number of selections in certain force org spots(troops), were comparable in most, and were themselves blown away in others (namely HQ due to the sheer number of SM special characters)
Similarly I did a comparison of unit options(how many options similar units could take) and found those too to be comparable, with some trending away in either direction.
Going into the analysis, I expected I would find that the Chaos Codex still blew away the SM codex in most areas and only look stifled when compared it's 4th edition codex. This wasn't really true. the opposite (the chaos codex is dwarfed compared to the new SM codex) also didn'rt seem to be true. What is different is the placement and origin of options in the codices which I suspect what causes the melancholy and pining for the old list (that and it being one of the most malleable lisr of all time).
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 06:20 pm |
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Thanks guys!
I must say that it was a very interesting game because it showed I think, and Seti I'm sure will back me on this, that my army the way I play it is superior under the old codex.
The buffed champions in the marine squads make up for the fact that the marines have less attacks than the new codex.
The ability to take 4 heavy support choices with oblits being in the elites section and dreds being in the heavy section (along with the old dred fire frenzy rule being superior to the new) really allows more heavy weapons to be fielded.
Add in the fact that a chaos marine squad can be less than 10 strong and still take a heavy weapon and a special weapon or 2 special weapons also helps my army.
Whats funny is I always complained that I had to take an HQ when I played the old codex. I put my list together for this game with Morgoth in it for old times sake, but I would have rather spent that 186 points on more marines.
The new codex is so restrictive in what my marine squads can do, ie they need to be 10 strong to include a heavy weapon, makes the squads inherantly more expensive.
The new codex also only lets me have 3 heavy support choices. Since Oblits are now heavy, and i feel it is necessary to always have oblits in the army, i am now limited to only 2 tanks from the heavy support section. That hurts.
The good thing about the new codex is that a 100 point sorceror with no upgrades is still a pretty good deal. And the buffing of the basic chaos marine trooper is a nice balancing act when you consider they took aways all the goodies the champions used to get.
The biggest problem with the new codex compared to the old, is that to really get the most from the codex, you must bow down to one or more of the gods and take either icons of one of the gods, or take things like berzerkers or plague marines.
To play an Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, or Word Bearers army you almost have to break fluff and include those god-specific troops choices.
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"Horus was weak, Horus was a fool" - Abaddon The Despoiler
http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 06:31 pm |
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As i've said for awhile, the new chaos codex isn't bad, it just is representative of Chaos marine Warbands, not legions.
The only legion, it could be argued, that it actually accurately represents is Black Legion.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 06:37 pm |
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LordBoroth wrote: my army the way I play it is superior under the old codex.
So don't play it that way.
Once the new Wolves codex came out, I envisioned my Wolf Lord Skullhewer bringing his Great Company together and issuing forth a new order of army organization that would center around changing the way units were equipped and what type of members would actually be assigned to units.
I've already spent well over $300 just to make the changes I feel are necessary to update my Space Wolves army to their new codex. And I'm going to end up spending hundreds more once I find a viable way to represent Thunderwolf Cavalry. The army itself isn't going to be vastly different than what I'm used to, but it WILL be subtly different and several little ways.
Times change. You've got to change with them.
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 06:54 pm |
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"so don't play that way"
I have 10,000+ points of IRON WARRIORS
Iron Warriors are non-marked marines.
Plague Marines, Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines are ALL marked by a god!
They are not IRON WARRIORS.
Its easy for you to say, that the new space wolf codex came out and i had to change how i play and i bought new models, etc. etc. because EVERY THING IN THE NEW SPACE WOLF CODEX IS A SPACE WOLF!
Not every thing in the chaos marine codex is an IRON WARRIOR.
you know better than that
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 07:12 pm |
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Also by insinuating that I haven't changed how i play, take a look at the two army lists i posted earlier in this thread.
I HAVE changed the way I play, my army lists have gone through tough changes to adapt to the new codex and the new 5th edition.
I played in a tournament two weeks ago that was 1850 and did quite well with an army that is quite different in composition and feel from the 4th edition chaos codex army i played against Seti.
I dont play with dreadnoughts anymore.
I always include a 3 man squad of oblits.
I play with 10 man squads of marines with a meltagun and a champ with a combiflamer.
I play with terminators now on a regular basis which i felt were a waste of points in the old codex in all except the largest of games.
I HAVE changed the way I play, I have NOT changed the fact that I play an Iron Warriors Grand Company compared to a chaos marine warband.
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Seti
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 08:13 pm |
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I pretty much agree with Boroth, for the style army he likes, 4th edition was a better codex. For me, 5th edition is better as I like the use of more cult troops. If you want to play a non-cult list akin to the Legions like Iron Warriors, Alpha, Nightlords.. then you could make better lists in the 4th edition. If you want a more war band feel, mixing Plague, Noise, Bezerkers, and Thousand sons.. then you are very happy with 5th.
That said, I also think we discovered that neither edition as that much better then the other. I'm guessing if we played several games the results would be pretty even.
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Derling
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Posted: Wed Jan 20th, 2010 09:03 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: LordBoroth wrote: my army the way I play it is superior under the old codex.
So don't play it that way.
I actually do think you both make good points. 
It seems clear that Jay has adapted his iron warrior army to use the 5th edition rules (as evident by his posted 5th ed list and his mention of tournament standing). It seems that his IW style list can be replicated in the new list, as he still has all the access to Havocs, obliterators, Ordnance(though not the Basalisk in particular), and Basic marine squads that used to comprise his army in the good ole days. It's not perfect. You can't put servo arms on your champions. Your Champions champions aren't quite as killy as they were in the olden timey days. You can't take 4 HS spots.
If by your own choice you limited your army to what the IW codex used to field in the old list.... and you can use nearly all of those things now...I'd say you're in pretty good shape. Were I too make a Raven gaurd army and the presumption was that I had to take mostly Jump packs and Bike squads, I'd have the same limitations in the Space marine codex as Jay does.
If your concern is that you used to get more hvy weapons into your old list than the new one, that's been pretty accross the board for new marine codices....the 6 Vanilla man marine Las/Plas sqaud was a staple of tournament style marine play. It doesn't exist in any modern codex. so The Iron Warriors haven't been singled out. They're just following suit.
We have talked several times about building proxied versions of Cult weaponry/ units in order to give you a higher degree of versitility. It's a common thing to do and honestly it's something I like/prefer to do. It makes my army "my own". This opens up what is a pretty good codex to you and invites all sorts of artisitic and creative juices to flow. You've got a knack for Conversion work. Why Couldn't Iron warriors have a Troop style unit built around toting gyro mounted heavy stubbers and large concusive blasters...In a regualr army, they are noise marines with sonic blasters, but in your army, they're Fire Supression marines. and they're dead ass cool! not only are they cool enough to be able to ALL wield Heavy Stubber type weapons, but they're virtually relentless.
Now you can certainly opt not to do that. You can limit yourself tothe handfull of unit types you used to use and still use. They might have gotten less capable. things change with the times and in some ways, many armies have felt that sting.( except for Space wolves, they're disgusting )
on top of all of this, you play with a group who is rather negotiable to your desire to want servo arms on champions and occasionally plunking down a basilisk in your marine force.
I've seen armies (like Dark Angels) get the REAL GW shaft multiple times...In the greater scheme of things, the Iron warriors situation just doesn't seem that bad to me.
Last edited on Wed Jan 20th, 2010 09:05 pm by Derling
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 02:33 pm |
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Derling wrote: We have talked several times about building proxied versions of Cult weaponry/ units in order to give you a higher degree of versitility. It's a common thing to do and honestly it's something I like/prefer to do. It makes my army "my own". This opens up what is a pretty good codex to you and invites all sorts of artisitic and creative juices to flow. You've got a knack for Conversion work. Why Couldn't Iron warriors have a Troop style unit built around toting gyro mounted heavy stubbers and large concusive blasters...In a regualr army, they are noise marines with sonic blasters, but in your army, they're Fire Supression marines. and they're dead ass cool! not only are they cool enough to be able to ALL wield Heavy Stubber type weapons, but they're virtually relentless.
Now you can certainly opt not to do that. You can limit yourself tothe handfull of unit types you used to use and still use. They might have gotten less capable. things change with the times and in some ways, many armies have felt that sting.
The above quote is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Jay, you have a real knack for conversion. Now that you've got a newer book that has taken some things away from you, but includes other units that you COULD use except for this feeling of a guilty conscience because of the NAME of the unit or how GW fluffs out the unit. Forget that! Take those other units and make them your own!
You're right that I've got a new codex, and therefore it's easy for me to play my army very closely to how I played it before. But guess what? I lost staple units from my lists as well. Remember those 7-man terminator squads with THREE assault cannons in them that I loved so much? In nearly every game over 2000 points I took at least one of those squads, and for games over 3000 points I had enough models for two of those units (and would often field them both in that situation). Well... that went bye-bye from the codex. I still get some pretty cool Termi options, but not the ones that I had modelled for years and years. I still don't know what I'm going to do with six assualt cannon terminators. Probably the same thing I did with my jump infantry when the LAST version of my codex came out.... box them up and hope that they can be put to better use someday. Remeber Rune Priests? I bought a N'jal model in 2nd edition right before 3rd ed. came out. After 3rd ed. a White Dwarf article came out for Space Wolves (like the BA currently have, only i think mine was two pages) and it severely limited what N'jal could do. Then my 3rd ed. codex came out and N'jal was completely GONE!  And Rune Priests were reduced to some of the worst psykers in the game. My N'jal model sat in a box in a closet for over a decade!
You hand-tie yourself to certain units because you want to stay true to your chosen army of preference. And I've got mad respect for that. Remeber when the "rhino-rush" gave way to the All-Drop-Pod shenanigans? I could have actually done the all-drop thing. But I HATED it! I hated playing against it, and I hated that other "Space Wolf" players took to it so readily as it seemed, to me at least, to be as far from their "history" and "traditions" as possible. I remember playing against a drop-pod SW army at Adepticon one year, and even though the kids i was playing against were cheating, I still remember thinking how much better that army worked than my love of mixed armor and infantry. So i understand, to a point, what it feels like to play "your" army the way you think it should be played while simultaneously being fucked over by doing exactly that.
However, you don't NEED to play it that way. Or you could at least relieve yourself from some of the restrictions you feel are placed upon you by allowing yourself some other units and making them yours. Derling's Noise Marines example is a great one!
You have both a knack for conversion AND fluff. And you're good at both! That's rare and something to be proud of. I fancy myself as somewhat decent at the fluff thing, but I know I absolutely suck at model conversion.
So if ANYONE could take units, convert them, fluff them out, and make them Iron Warriors units that any observer would agree would fit right in with the army, it would be YOU! Substitute your power fist arms for Thrall servitor arms - giving them a real servo-ARM, make the changes Derling suggests for the Fire Suppression sqaud, tear the tracks off of your basalisk, shorten the barrel, and sprout some giant mechanical crab legs from its sides to make a Defiler. I don't know. Like I said, i'm terrible at conversions!  But you could do SOMETHING. Of that I'm sure.
Here's some Descendents lyrics to get my point across to you even more:
I'm not a cool guy anymore
Left it behind, then closed the door
I know you can't escape the past
Now I look back and have to laugh
I was my worst enemy
It almost got the best of me
What was I thinking of?
It couldn't stay the way it was
I looked up one day and saw that
It was up to me
You can only be a victim if you
Admit defeat
...now get out there and make the best damn Iron Warriors army that 5th Edition has ever seen!
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With these paws, I thee type, for Russ.
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:50 pm |
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Good retort.
I understand.
I know where both you guys are coming from and i've talked to Derling about this before. The idea IS intriguing and I've thought about it alot.
Do you guys REALLY want me playing with 2 lash daemon princes, 6 oblits, a vindicator (or defiler) and several squads of noise marines and plague marines in every army i play? I don't.
I can make a pretty competitive list out of the chaos codex (although i still think its underpowered compared to most of the ones that came after it) but I don't know how far I want to go.
And i could convert some stuff and go half ways but i am just not sure i wanna go that route at the moment.
I now have 2 armies besides Iron Warriors and i may just play them more.
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http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 04:57 pm |
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Oh ya, thanks for the pep talk!
CTM
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http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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Derling
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Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 05:11 pm |
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LordBoroth wrote: Do you guys REALLY want me playing with 2 lash daemon princes, 6 oblits, a vindicator (or defiler) and several squads of noise marines and plague marines in every army i play? I don't.
I think you know the answer to that and I think there is a healthy line in the sand you can draw between where you are and where that is.
LordBoroth wrote:
I can make a pretty competitive list out of the chaos codex (although i still think its underpowered compared to most of the ones that came after it)
I find Chaos armies composed of generic marine squads to be one of the army type i'm most afraid of with many of my armies. Outside of Space Wolves (where I do agree), I think you're pretty much on even footing. If I replicated a marine to replicate what you field, it would look damn similar in capabilities.
LordBoroth wrote:
And i could convert some stuff and go half ways but i am just not sure i wanna go that route at the moment.
Well, I have a bunch of Iron warrior, chaos bitz and Heavy Stubbers layin around, so I might just end up building ya a "Fire Suppression squad" just for the hell of it. AFTER I finish painting up my 6 stompas.
LordBoroth wrote:
I now have 2 armies besides Iron Warriors and i may just play them more.
I think you need a forth!
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Brother Silas
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Posted: Thu Jan 21st, 2010 08:31 pm |
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Derling wrote:
Well, I have a bunch of Iron warrior, chaos bitz and Heavy Stubbers layin around, so I might just end up building ya a "Fire Suppression squad" just for the hell of it. AFTER I finish painting up my 6 stompas.
Pfft.
Like you bought six stompas
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