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crterry
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Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2009 09:49 am |
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If you thought the pissing was messy, wait till Slovak has his private time with these additional rumors:
TROOPS
Penal Battalion: 50 pts. 1 Custodian and 9 Penal troopers. Ld 8. Rifle and close combat weapons. Scouts, Stubborn, "Desperate".
Chimera: 55 pts. 12 10 10 Tank, Amphibious, Mobile Command Vehicle. Multi-laser, hull Heavy Bolter, searchlight and smoke launchers. Options: Upgrade Multi-laser to Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter - free; hull Heavy Bolter to Heavy Flamer - free; Storm Bolter or Heavy Stubber +10pts, Hunter-Killer Missile +10pts, Dozer Blade +10 pts, Extra Armour +15pts, Camo Netting +20pts.
FAST ATTACK
Hellhound: 12 12 10 Tank, Fast. Inferno Cannon: 12" Template, S6 AP4 Heavy 1 (like the previous version but there is no roll to hit and no partials, but reaches 12").
Devildog: 12 12 10 Tank, Fast. Fusion Cannon: 24" S8 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast, "Fusion".
Banewolf: 12 12 10 Tank, Fast. Chemical Cannon: S1 AP3 Heavy 1, Template, Poison (wounds on a 2+ to "targets with resistance").
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Leman Russ Special Rule: Can choose to move 6" and fire all weapons or fire nothing and move 6" +1D6".
LR Battle Tank: 14 13 10 Tank. Battle Cannon.
LR Exterminator: 14 13 10 Tank. Exterminator Autocannon: Heavy 4, Twin-linked. (Boo-yah!)
LR Vanquisher: 14 13 10 Tank. Vanquisher Cannon: AP2 Heavy 1, +1D6 penetration.
LR Eradicator: 14 13 10 Tank. Eradicator Nova Cannon: 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Ignores cover saves.
LR Demolisher: 14 13 11 Tank. Demolisher Siege Cannon.
LR Punisher: 14 13 11 Tank. Punisher Gatling Cannon: 24" S5 AP- Heavy 20.
(Holy Crap! Heavy 20!?!)
LR Executioner: 14 13 11 Tank. Executioner Plasma Cannon: 36" S7 AP2 Heavy 3.
Basilisk: 12 10 10 Tank, Open Topped^.
Medusa: 12 10 10 Tank, Open Topped^. Medusa Siege Gun: 36" S10 AP2, Heavy Artillery 1, Large Blast. "Fortification Buster" Ammunition: 48" S10 AP1 Heavy 1, Blast, +1D6 penetration.
Colossus: 12 10 10 Tank, Open Topped^. Colossus Siege Cannon: 24-240" S6 AP3 Heavy Artillery 1, Large Blast, Ignores cover saves.
Griffon: 12 10 10 Tank, Open Topped^. Griffon Heavy Mortar: 12-48" S6 AP4 Heavy Artillery 1, Large Blast, can choose to "repeat" (re-roll?) deviation dice roll.
Manticore: 12 10 10 Tank. Storm Eagle Missile: 4 only. 24-120" S10 AP4 Heavy Artillery 1D3, Large Blast.
Deathstrike: 12 12 10 Tank. Deathstrike Missile: 1 only. 12"-960" S10 AP1 Heavy Artillery***, Blast (radius 1D3+3").
Special Rules:
- Cannot be fired on Turn 1. Each turn roll a D6, weapon can be fired on a 6. Modifiers: +1 per turn, -1 for each crew stunned or weapon destroyed results sustained. Can always be fired on the roll of a natural 6.
- Any weapon destoyed results received are ignored, the only effect they have is to delay the launch.
- Hits on vehicles in the area of the Deathstrike Missile are not calculated at half strength but at S10.
^These four can also be enclosed.
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MrMumbles
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Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2009 03:15 pm |
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That Punisher is just CRAZY. That is going to instill some giddiness in my area.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2009 08:35 pm |
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wow. now i am REALLY regretting buying all that Ork crap. I've got plenty of guard shit just laying around. Maybe it's time I revisit my original 2nd choice army. 
They seem to be pumping up the side armor on most of the Guard tanks... cool. 
It'll be nice to break out the Exterminator again. I haven't used that tank in years.
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2009 08:53 pm |
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looks like GW is once again using a sledgehammer, when they could have used a scalpel, just like the bloatfest the marine codex is, the guard will be the same - bloat
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Sun Feb 8th, 2009 08:55 pm |
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i think they need to redo the tau codex next and give them an extra 20 unit choices and 15 new special characters just because.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 12:07 pm |
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Don't worry Jay, I hear GW is planning on coming out with another Chaos codex in the next 4 years.
Seriously though... does anyone think we are entering another era of codex escalation?
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 12:46 pm |
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| yup
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 08:14 pm |
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I wouldn't get too bent out of shape just yet-- I mean these tanks look crazy impressive, especially from a converters standpoint (smiley-face), but look carefully before the doom and gloom sirens start wailing. . .
"LR Punisher: 14 13 11 Tank. Punisher Gatling Cannon: 24" S5 AP- Heavy 20.
(Holy Crap! Heavy 20!?!)"
Okay, do the math. . . say this thing gets in range (24") of a 10 man squad of marines. At BS3, that's 10 hits on average, S5 vs T4 means it wounds on 3s; that's 6 wounds (AP-) which marines save on 3s, that's two dead marines.
I'd rather have, at the same range, a Demolisher. Hell, a battle cannon is waaaay more lethal than that and has 72" range. That's what a standard, out-of-the-box Leman Russ is armed with, so. . . big improvement? Game breaker?
Doubt it.
Fun, without a doubt, but unless this thing is priced out at under 100 points (right?) it's just a LR variant, and not an especially deadly one. Even firing the Punisher at something with a lousy armor save, say Orks, I think the math would prove that the squad of 10 Marines would be more lethal, and also be able to better witstand the inevitable assault that you're going to get by letting anything within 24".
Granted that we don't know the points breakdown yet- but which of these vehicles are you thinking about when you say that the Codex is going to break the game? I don't get what's so scary about this list.
The biggest change is the increase to 13 on the side armor.
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Brother Tiberius
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 08:17 pm |
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Major_Slovak wrote: I wouldn't get too bent out of shape just yet-- I mean these tanks look crazy impressive, especially from a converters standpoint (smiley-face), but look carefully before the doom and gloom sirens start wailing. . .
"LR Punisher: 14 13 11 Tank. Punisher Gatling Cannon: 24" S5 AP- Heavy 20.
(Holy Crap! Heavy 20!?!)"
Okay, do the math. . . say this thing gets in range (24") of a 10 man squad of marines. At BS3, that's 10 hits on average, S5 vs T4 means it wounds on 3s; that's 6 wounds (AP-) which marines save on 3s, that's two dead marines.
I'd rather have, at the same range, a Demolisher. Hell, a battle cannon is waaaay more lethal than that and has 72" range. That's what a standard, out-of-the-box Leman Russ is armed with, so. . . big improvement? Game breaker?
Doubt it.
Fun, without a doubt, but unless this thing is priced out at under 100 points (right?) it's just a LR variant, and not an especially deadly one. Even firing the Punisher at something with a lousy armor save, say Orks, I think the math would prove that the squad of 10 Marines would be more lethal, and also be able to better witstand the inevitable assault that you're going to get by letting anything within 24".
Granted that we don't know the points breakdown yet- but which of these vehicles are you thinking about when you say that the Codex is going to break the game? I don't get what's so scary about this list.
The biggest change is the increase to 13 on the side armor.
In your Orks example, I'd agree and wager you are still better off with a Hellhound.
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 08:35 pm |
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Looks from these rumors as though that the Hellhound is getting neutered:
"Hellhound: 12 12 10 Tank, Fast. Inferno Cannon: 12" Template, S6 AP4 Heavy 1 (like the previous version but there is no roll to hit and no partials, but reaches 12")."
Current range on the Inferno Cannon is 24"- ranged just got halved. But I agree, Brother Tib, the current config for a Hellhound I'd rather have than the Punisher, but if the rumors here have any merit then the new and improved Hellhound would be out of range in the example given.
Seriously guys-- when is the last time a Guard army won a GT? When is the last time a solidly strategic player going into a tournament spent a bunch of time nerfing his list, just in case he runs into a Guard army at a major tournament?
I hope they give all the Guard players some great new modeling and playing opportunities with this new codex, but if you think GW is going to create some uber-list out of the Guard you're nuts. It's just not the role the Guard has ever played in the line-up of 40k armies.
Especially now with Apocalypse, which GW loves the Guard for and has them in at MVP for Apocalypse games. I mean look at the ranges on most of these artillery vehicles- 24"- 120"? 24" - 240"? 12" - 960"?
Not especially useful on a 4' x 6' board. These gadgets, even in their rumored form, are not game-breakers.
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crterry
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 09:16 pm |
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I agree match hammer wise, it may not look like much, and its not likely to swing the GT setups to the guard, but the punisher is impressive.
That volume of dice, which says nothing about the sponsons, is a threat to anyone, ,mathhammer or not. Three working in tandem (remember the squadron rumor for tanks) means you'll be throwing 60 dice a turn at a unit. Not even bugs can withstand that type of firepower. It also attacks a key feature of fifth edition, troops.
Its an immediate threat in any 5th edition game that can't be ignored. Properly supported by demolishers and basilisks, who wouldn't run a squadron in their army?
Blah blah close range.... so what? it puts the guard into the role they are designed for, ever pushing forward under a curtain of superior firepower. I'd love to run infantry in the gaps between these tanks.
Math is for geeks, two fistfuls of dice is intimidating, don't underestimate its effect
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LordBoroth
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Posted: Mon Feb 9th, 2009 09:35 pm |
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Oh no no no, i never meant that any of those new tanks mentioned would "break the game" in fact i already thought about the math with the heavy 20 gun - marines laugh at it.
What i simply meant was that now, all of a sudden gw has decided that every new codex must not only have the contents of the old codex, with slight modification, but each new codex must have a ton of new units and characters a further justification for increasing the price of the codex. (i think its fine btw, for the increase in price)
The problem with this i see is that they are adding tons of new stuff, but most of it (the new stuff) isn't gonna get used by most players because a certain combination of a couple units is gonna be damn powerful and the rest of the codex's entries are gonna be gak and not worth the paper they're printed on, from a competitive stand-point.
The new stuff (new units and special characters) are not necessary for the game. They need to not focus on new units and characters but instead focus on the core rules in the codexes being fair and making every unit included worth it.
By the way folks, i am seeing this as a trend starting with the newest marine codex, NOT any prior codex.
The time they are putting into making new unit types, both rules-wise and model-wise, could be better spent on armies that have gotten unceremoniously dropped in the conversion from 4th to 5th edition. I am talking here of course about the chaos legions, the lost and the damned, the kroot army list, the 13th company, the eldar craftworlds and maybe others i am not thinking about. The idea that they can eliminate these army lists and tell us as players that we can simply use "counts as" rules is bogus becuase it is simply an excuse for them pushing their new agenda.
What is their new agenda? Its less army books with more units in them with an emphasis on special characters. It smacks of 2nd edition hero-hammer. And i dont like it, they are taking an easy way out here by eliminating army lists by replacing them with characters that modify the army lists ever so slightly. Example: Vulkan must be fielded to play salamanders - why??? Easy way out. It makes the game less interesting because there inst as much creativity in armies from a rules perspective.
Its gonna degenerate into, what army are you taking? Oh space marines with lysander and vulkan? Oh ok i know exactly whats in your list. The same same same units as that other army i just played. I guess it was like this before, but i think its a goofy setup and if i wanted to play with special characters in every game i would play warmachine instead.
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http://apostlesofcontagion.blogspot.com/
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Professor Chaos
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 12:48 am |
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Don't worry Boroth, in 5 years they'll turn it back to 3rd edition rules and neuter everything again.
It's called codex creep with rules revamp. GW has mastered this crappy busines model. That's of course if this business model survives our new depression, guess they should start sucking up to their veteran gamers soon.
Why! Mommy and daddy are not going to buy little Bobby little plastic men to shut him up because they can not afford the 6 bedroom 3 bath home with a 4 car garage, they'll give him a slap on the wrist and tell him to play his ball and cup on a string.
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Pen dull
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 02:24 am |
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I would just like to mention that with the Ork codex we lost abilities with grots, lost configurations with looted weapons, lost the Kult of Speed, Feral Orks, Stikkbommas, Flash Gitz that worked.
They gave us Nobz squads back, and that made all the difference.
New toys sell new models. That's why they have to have all kinds of new stuff in there. Chaos gets new stuff, unfortunately for you LB, all of those new cool things are demons. 
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 12:47 pm |
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Pen dull wrote: I would just like to mention that with the Ork codex we lost abilities with grots, lost configurations with looted weapons, lost the Kult of Speed, Feral Orks, Stikkbommas, Flash Gitz that worked.
They gave us Nobz squads back, and that made all the difference.
New toys sell new models. That's why they have to have all kinds of new stuff in there. Chaos gets new stuff, unfortunately for you LB, all of those new cool things are demons.
You also gained Deff Koptas, Weird Boyz, the Shock Attack Gun, Pain Boyz conferring FNP, and TONS of special characters. There are even special character options within normal squads like the Kommandos, Storm Boyz and Flashgits.
It was the Ork Codex, not the Marine 'dex, that started the "New Codex Order" - which seems to be as Jay described it, focusing on Special Characters and adding several new units/options.
I'm fine with the new toys. The more, the merrier! But the dependency on Special Characters is lame.
As far as codex escalation goes... I'm undecided. The new Ork codex is superior to the old one. I think we can all agree there. But it seems like the new ork 'dex is MUCH better than the old one. Now, is the new Marine 'dex MUCH better than its predecessor? I doubt it. Is it moderately better? Probably.
The new Guard codex should be better than the old. That's a no-brainer. But how much better? I tend to agree with Slovak. I just can't imagine GW publishing a Guard book that dominates all the other army books. However, I think the Ork Codex set a high water mark that all new books must now meet.
The Guard book won't break the game, but it will be interesting to see just how much they are improved.
I really don't want to go back to the days when each new codex was better than the last.
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With these paws, I thee type, for Russ.
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ethmongul
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 12:56 pm |
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Not taking into consideration that the ork codex went through 2 editions of the game without being recycled,I agree with you on the ork codex beef up point.However, for all of you that think that special characters are the way to go,I completely disagree.Now the space marine got the revamp cause of the new story line and I think the orks did too.I'm not sure that I agree with this concept,but they at least are sticking to it.
I'm pretty sure that the IG's are gonna be sick.
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 02:58 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote:
I just can't imagine GW publishing a Guard book that dominates all the other army books. However, I think the Ork Codex set a high water mark that all new books must now meet.
And the only reason that the Guard codex won't be a game breaker is that it doesn't have to be.
The die-hard customer base of guard players (myself included) have proved themselves over and over to spend millions of dollars whether their army will win tournaments or not.
This is my opinion, but I believe that there already exists a solid core of Guard junkies that love the game because they love the Guard, and they'll keep buying models from GW and FW no matter what; hell in the case of Forge World I've been buying models for years that aren't even legal to play in the game. Thousands of dollars worth.
So GW doesn't need to break the game with the Guard codex to sell a shitload of models, they just need to crank out some shiny new fun stuff and it will get gobbled up by their existing Guard customers. As evidenced by running the numbers on these new Guard vehicles: it's basically just a Leman Russ over and over and over, it's like Coke or Pepsi.
But hey, I'm in heaven. . . I could not be happier. I'm going to build and convert and play every single one of those tanks and artillery vehicles, and I'm going to fucking love it. The last Guard codex was great for troops, but it had three tanks total as heavy support choices. That's a fucking joke that GW was playing on itself, right? Marketing bumble #1,368. Let's give the Chaos Space Marines more tank options than we give the Guard, and while we're at it let's flush a couple million dollars of revenue down the toilet.
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 03:00 pm |
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It will be a different story, I think, when the Dark Eldar codex comes up, because they're going to need to sell models (lots and lots of models) to a yet undiscovered customer base. And how will they do it?
I predict they'll make the DE strong. Not stronger than Space Marines (pays the rent), but probably as strong or stronger than Orks.
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crterry
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 03:58 pm |
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I think with the guard we'll see a switch to armies that are good at one thing:
IG:Shooting through volume
DE: weak shooting, preposterous hand to hand
and so on...
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Pen dull
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Posted: Tue Feb 10th, 2009 06:33 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: Pen dull wrote: I would just like to mention that with the Ork codex we lost abilities with grots, lost configurations with looted weapons, lost the Kult of Speed, Feral Orks, Stikkbommas, Flash Gitz that worked.
You also gained Deff Koptas, Weird Boyz, the Shock Attack Gun, Pain Boyz conferring FNP, and TONS of special characters. There are even special character options within normal squads like the Kommandos, Storm Boyz and Flashgits.
Deff Koptas: gained some things, but we had them in the old codex Kult of Speed.
Weird Boyz: hold over from Feral Ork Rules. Were found in 3rd edition book and at that time could be legally added to the 98 ork dex.
Shokk Attack Gun: True dat. But that was an old weapon that came back, not a completely new one.
Pain Boyz and FNP: True dat. But wasn't that logical? I mean, the fluff was screamin' for it.
Special Characters: We lost Nazdreg. Ghaz, Grot, Wazz, that jumppack guy and Snikrot were all in the old dex. The only new one is Kaptain Badrukk. So not really TONS, but a few were made better, one replaced, and that's about it, really.
But I get your point. What I was saying was: the characters matter little. The Nobz squads are what made the army playable, along with the incorporation of a single-turn fleet of foot.
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"How is that even possible?!?"- Milkman
"Everybody can take all summer to build one flyer a piece.... Bam instant flying retard fest." - joe
"When you die, I'm gonna cry a little." - Derling
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