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Ben
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 12:02 am |
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Sooooo....being a templar player will I have to wait to use the "universal rules" that come out in the new Marine codex until the BT's get a new codex???
Like the +3 save with storm shields....
I think someone told me I would have to use the my codex to be legal..even though might differ from the other SM rules...
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Professor Chaos
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 12:27 am |
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| I think what ever your Templar Codex tells you to reference from the space marine codex, you should be able to use for your codex untill they change it again.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 02:38 pm |
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According to Phil Kelley at a seminar held at the L.A. Games Day, the chapters already in play (like DA, BA, BT, and SW) will NOT use the rules for wargear listed in the new Space Marines Codex.
Those Chapters already using their own codex will use the wargear rules listed in that codex rather than the new space marines one. In other words, your Templar storm shields will be 4+ inv. (and only against close combat attacks???) while the new vanilla marines will have storm shields that confer a 3+ inv. save against all attacks.
Pretty cool, huh?  Makes a lot of sense, huh? What a steaming pile of shit, huh? 
The Wolves get off lucky, since their codex only lists wargear unique to them and then states that for all other wargear, "refer to codex space marines".
This definitely isn't written in stone, as it was one games-developer shooting his mouth off at one seminar, but it feels like GW would take a stupid stance on its own rules like this.
And it is most definitely a stupid business decision as well. Because, in essence, there is no reason for you to go buy the new marine codex. You won't get the thunder-fire cannon or the wargear, so why bother?
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 04:25 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: And it is most definitely a stupid business decision as well. Because, in essence, there is no reason for you to go buy the new marine codex. You won't get the thunder-fire cannon or the wargear, so why bother?
I think that exactly what they expected, since they have been pretty open about having each army being consigned to a single book to do exactly this.
If they go the other way, they deal with people questioning their desicions on making players own multiple books for a single army, needing to keep current on updated FAQs, etc... This was a big source of complaint 2 years ago on main forum sites and GW looked for a measured response which they though was solid. Big Surprise, it wasn't as easy as all that. Sometimes we get the hell we ask for.
No matter what, GW is accused of bad decision making and rules design. IF look hard enough, I might even find Steve poking his nose out at GW for forcing him to buy a SM codex with his SW codex to use it correctly?
that said, I do think if you're goign to have diverent armies like specific marine chapter codices, it's better to make them an orbital book reference a set of core Marine rules and then adapt the mini-books accordingly.
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 04:28 pm |
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Ben wrote: Sooooo....being a templar player will I have to wait to use the "universal rules" that come out in the new Marine codex until the BT's get a new codex???
Like the +3 save with storm shields....
I think someone told me I would have to use the my codex to be legal..even though might differ from the other SM rules...
That is absolutely true if the rules for Storm shield(or whatever) are already printed in your codex and are not just pointed to a reference in the main SM codex rules.
I haben't looked specifically, but I'm sure there are some cases where not getting the updated rules actually work in your favor...so it's likely not all bad.
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Brother Tiberius
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 05:00 pm |
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Derling wrote: That is absolutely true if the rules for Storm shield(or whatever) are already printed in your codex and are not just pointed to a reference in the main SM codex rules.
I haben't looked specifically, but I'm sure there are some cases where not getting the updated rules actually work in your favor...so it's likely not all bad.
That's weak though, because by that rationale, there would still be Land Raider Crusaiders running around with 3 shot assault cannons.
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 05:15 pm |
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Brother Tiberius wrote: Derling wrote: That is absolutely true if the rules for Storm shield(or whatever) are already printed in your codex and are not just pointed to a reference in the main SM codex rules.
I haben't looked specifically, but I'm sure there are some cases where not getting the updated rules actually work in your favor...so it's likely not all bad.
That's weak though, because by that rationale, there would still be Land Raider Crusaders running around with 3 shot assault cannons.
Yeah, I agree. ( though they took alot of heat on the FAQing of unit profile rule changes that weren't purely error driven, so It is easy to me to see why they are so reluctant to stray from their "all your rules in one book" approach....well, that and the additional testing costs).
I really find myself in the middle as to what should have been done. Regardless, they didn't do it in a good way, and I think the only real fix is to rush out quick rereleases of the offending codices. But then you've got 2 nearly identical looking books with subtle differences and players complain about that too. Put a "revised book-New rules sticker" on it, and people complain they have to shill out $20 on a new codex and it should have been produced as Errata document...then we're back to people complaining about having to keep a trapper keeper in loose papers and articles to tournaments in order to be fully versed at the game.
In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennia, there is only complaining.
Despite what I'm saying here, My personal preferences are for erratta style changes like alot of you are saying. But I understand why they don't feel that way.
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 05:37 pm |
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Derling wrote: No matter what, GW is accused of bad decision making and rules design. IF look hard enough, I might even find Steve poking his nose out at GW for forcing him to buy a SM codex with his SW codex to use it correctly?
that said, I do think if you're goign to have diverent armies like specific marine chapter codices, it's better to make them an orbital book reference a set of core Marine rules and then adapt the mini-books accordingly.
I don't remember ever thinking that having to buy a 'core' codex for an army and then a mini-dex for an extended army like Wolves was a big deal.
I at least get to learn all about the thousands upon thousands of Vanilla Marine armies that will be out there.
The 'core' list with extended mini-dex supplements is definitely the way to go IMO. Then again, I've only ever known that way of army list life.  Do you know what IG army I played for a couple years? Catachans! Same damn thing. Buy the IG book first, then go buy the Catachan list. I didn't mind. I got to use Catachans sometimes, and then a regular IG list the rest of the time.
Truth be told, right now, I'm kinda glad that GW skipped over the SW list during it's "experimental" phase with the different marine chapters and 5th ed. about to come out and all that non-sense.
Just remember, Ben, the BT now have one of the most competitive lists in the game. Be happy with that.
Remember also that people like Jay are out there who are begging for even the slightest little whiff of a scent that there might be some shitty little White Dwarf article that very basically details an army list for Iron Warriors.
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Major_Slovak
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 06:00 pm |
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Or, lest we forget, Lost and Damned.
Can I get an amen, Twaimn?
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: I don't remember ever thinking that having to buy a 'core' codex for an army and then a mini-dex for an extended army like Wolves was a big deal... <<edit>> The 'core' list with extended mini-dex supplements is definitely the way to go IMO. Then again, I've only ever known that way of army list life. Do you know what IG army I played for a couple years? Catachans! Same damn thing. Buy the IG book first, then go buy the Catachan list. I didn't mind. I got to use Catachans sometimes, and then a regular IG list the rest of the time.
I agree, given my organizational style in programming, I like styling sublists as child objects of a parent list rather than hitting the situation we have now. It wouldn't have been such a deal if they wouldn't have made some many small changes yto the basic workings of the marine units. If Cyclone missiles and storm shield operated the same old way we might not even have noticed ever.
Wolf Man wrote:
I at least get to learn all about the thousands upon thousands of Vanilla Marine armies that will be out there.
the thousand upon thousand of varied vanilla marine armies out there. We've seen it now with Eldar, Orks, Chaos.... putting in enough worthwhile units in a single army list, and the need for restrictive list with unique buffing special rules goes down while still presenting alot of variation. This I don't see as an issue. I still haven't fought an Ork army that looked similar to a previous one witht he new 5th ed book.
Wolf Man wrote:
Remember also that people like Jay are out there who are begging for even the slightest little whiff of a scent that there might be some shitty little White Dwarf article that very basically details an army list for Iron Warriors.
I think there is a "whiff" of that...thoughthe rumor it is more focussed on the cult armies than the undivided ones. With the exception of giving some sort of Servo arm capacity, I think the renegades list works just fine as a themed IW army list. I do think people have gotten addicted to having special rules replacing theme in unit selection.
An theme IW list can easily be captured by a player:
focussing on traditional tactical squads, bolstered by a healthy selection Havoc, Vindicators, and Obliterators.
It's almost indistinguishable from the old IW list minus the servo arms. I think army wide sublist special rules on top of parent list special rules should be avoided except under the most extreme cases. Iron warriors even by background aren't that much different than other renegade chapters in a scope that needs to be augmented by rules.
If Jay ever want to add 20 points to Morgath as a basic lord and give him a servo arm...I'll let him do it in any game I play with him(I'd even let him do it at tournament, though judges would likely not) and I think Jay's Apoc Datafaxes are still pretty great. I think I might even let him go farther let him field C:SM techmarines in his army. I might even like to see a silver metal Basilisk on the table even in regular sized games, as long as it didn't seem like he was throwing it out all the time and exploiting some unforseen game effect.
Maybe it's my time with the game where I have seen my primer grey space wolves who were just grey marines, my Dark Angels who were just green marines, My guardsmen who were just guardsmen, my eldar who were just eldar, that I kind of see some army sublist as non-essential clutter to the game. Back in 3rd and 4rth The IW could use something that allowed them to field a siege army, they didn't have Vindicators back then and now they do...done!
the new lists really go farther to produce more options than we've ever had for diverse themes. People are just used to wanting restrictions in favor for special rules...which I can't really disagree with getting rid of.
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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Major_Slovak wrote: Or, lest we forget, Lost and Damned.
Can I get an amen, Twaimn?
Amen.
I think LaTD definately need a list ten times faster than codex:Lavender marines or codex: spikey marines who yell "Ni!". They shouldn't be a sublist though. I think they are deserving of a whole book.
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Ben
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 06:58 pm |
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I agree BT is still pretty freaking awsome..
....I just had a grand vision of drop podding assualt terminators in allocating hits on some storm sheilds (+3) taking a casualty or 2 then rightous zealing my assualt terminators to ge close enough to get into CC and corn holeling whatever it was...Like a stupid shooty carnifex..or some queer SOB shit.... (cheesey I know but I've just be getting rocked the last ohhh well...EVERY GAME I'VE PLAYED)
spose I could still do that I would just be taking a crap load of crux saves...Just have to wait for the BT cheese...
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Wolf Man
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 08:24 pm |
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You could still do that... you'd just take a couple more casualties is all. That is still pretty pimpin' though. 
With the new drop pod coming out, and the restrictions on SW dropping in becoming more relaxed (termies can't Teleport, but can take a pod), I'm going to find it hard to not pick up a couple of those pods myself.
Perhaps Teleporters emit a high-pitched tone that only the heightened senses of the Space Wolves can hear. Like a dog whistle.
Terminators walk into the teleport chamber. The teleporter comes online. And the terminators flee the room. yipe! yipe! yipe!
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Derling
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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Wolf Man wrote: You could still do that... you'd just take a couple more casualties is all. That is still pretty pimpin' though.
With the new drop pod coming out, and the restrictions on SW dropping in becoming more relaxed (termies can't Teleport, but can take a pod), I'm going to find it hard to not pick up a couple of those pods myself.
It doesn't hurt that they are pretty and kind of cheap (at least compared to FW).
Wolfy is right regarding regarding BT and drop pods though. I'll go so far as to say even the basic 10 man squads do real nice taken en masse. It's kind of even characterful to do this with the crusading BTs.
I'm not a real fan of full drop pod armies ( I think they remove the key aspect of manuever from the tactical game much more than any other of the common cheats), but I certainly thing your nose is in the right place. BT (and spacewolves) do well with drop pods, as they commonly less afraid of being counter charged after hitting down.
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Brother Tiberius
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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Ben wrote: I agree BT is still pretty freaking awsome..
....I just had a grand vision of drop podding assualt terminators in allocating hits on some storm sheilds (+3) taking a casualty or 2 then rightous zealing my assualt terminators to ge close enough to get into CC and corn holeling whatever it was...Like a stupid shooty carnifex..or some queer SOB shit.... (cheesey I know but I've just be getting rocked the last ohhh well...EVERY GAME I'VE PLAYED)
spose I could still do that I would just be taking a crap load of crux saves...Just have to wait for the BT cheese...
Dude, you talk about cornholeing a lot...
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Ben
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Posted: Fri Sep 5th, 2008 11:36 pm |
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you still wanna share a room with me at Rock Con...sleep on your back.....
just kidding...
Last edited on Fri Sep 5th, 2008 11:37 pm by Ben
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Stormcaller56
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Posted: Sat Sep 6th, 2008 02:47 pm |
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You had to mention the carnifex, didn't you...
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